Opportunity Space Episode 3: Power Culture


In this conversation, Tod Lickerman and Craig Van Pelt are joined by Tom Bradbury, CEO of Broad-Gauge to discuss the importance of culture in the workplace and how to build an effective culture. They explore the impact of the pandemic on culture and the challenges of maintaining a strong culture in a remote work environment. Tom shares his model of effective culture, which consists of four dimensions: leadership, organization, workforce, and technology. They also discuss the use of data to identify and address problematic areas in culture and the role of culture in attracting and retaining top talent.


Listen to this epsiode on Spotify. 






  • Culture is the heartbeat of any workplace and plays a crucial role in the success of a company.
  • Building and maintaining an effective culture is more important than ever, especially in a remote work environment.
  • Effective culture consists of four dimensions: leadership, organization, workforce, and technology.
  • Data can be used to identify and address problematic areas in culture and align the organization.
  • A strong culture can attract and retain top talent and contribute to the bottom line.



Tod Lickerman (00:21)

Welcome to Opportunity Space. Today's episode is Power Culture. We're gonna talk about culture because we know it's the heartbeat of any workplace and the companies we all work for and are part of. And building an effective culture, reinforcing that culture is more critical than ever. Today we have the privilege of having a conversation with Tom Bradbury, the CEO of Broad-Gauge, which is a platform that quantifies the impact of culture on corporate performance. But before we get into it,

Let's set the stage with some details, Craig.


Craig Van Pelt (00:53)

You know, culture is hard enough to build under perfect circumstances. Before the pandemic, there were about nine or so million people who worked100% remote. Since the pandemic, it has jumped up to about 25 million. So we're talking about another 16, 17 million people across the country who are working remote, which means the culture shifts and you have to do something else, something more to help engage people and build that culture. So I'm really interested to talk with Tom today to understand how can you do that under the circumstances that we're now living with?

Tod (01:28)

Now Tom, you and I have been talking about this for quite some time, right? You have an interesting background and how you got to this. Fill us in to how you got to this and your specific way of going about measuring culture.

Tom Bradbury (01:32)


Great. Thanks, Tod. It's great to be here with you guys. I obviously appreciate the opportunity to talk to you. So, yeah, I was part for most of my career. I owned an IT consultancy that was part of the ecosystem that supported real estate transactions, right? Mostly around workplace transformation. So after many years of doing that and exiting the business, I started to do a lot of workplace strategy work, tech productivity and engagement and partnering with some significant real estate companies.

Tod, that's where we met each other a number of years ago. And going there and trying to understand and uncover what was happening ahead of a potential lease transaction, right? And how each company had to think a little bit differently about their workplace. And what I discovered over and over and over were similar with unique strands of unique attributes specific to any given company friction over and over and over in ways that as a as a business owner and entrepreneur and having a number of people work for me that when I found out about that stuff I was equal parts frustrated and embarrassed like how is that happening here right and how did I let that happen or why is that happening and I knew even though we work with some really big companies I knew that the CEOs of those firms would be equally frustrated and embarrassed about some of the stuff that I was experiencing during my strategy work.

So it propelled me to write a book, The Culture Project, 30 Days to Reboot Your Organization, which was really me grabbing a CEO by his or her lapels, going, go look at this friction in your business, get an understanding of how it exists or where it exists. Here's the methodology for creating an advisory board with internal people to kind of get to it and understand how you can remedy it. And after writing that book, it really sunk in that, during a lot of this time, I'd always hear employee engagement two thumbs up while witnessing this friction. So I just set out on a new path to try to understand through my work, how I might be uniquely positioned to be able to go through similar engagement mechanics, but hand back data.

That was objective and relatable more than just to the HR folks who ended up owning this, you know, topic, right? So that CEOs, COOs, CFOs, any owner of a domain or manager would understand the data and help bring some alignment and accountability to addressing culture. So that's what made me start Broadgauge and brought me here to talk to you guys today.

Tod (04:35)

Yeah, that's why I think it's great about the work you do is it's getting behind to defining what effective culture really is. It's not it's not all soft stuff. There are real aspects to what works and what doesn't and what you should look for in terms of delivering, you know, enterprise wide performance. So why don't you just take us through your model. What what are the components of effective culture to you?

Tom (04:59)

Well, first of all, effective culture to me means that the values and appropriate behaviors that support any given business in any given industry with their specific clients are in place. And I think to your point, Tod, like the underpinning of culture for me is effectiveness, right? Organizational effectiveness, right? Because that really enables people to do their work with minimal speed bumps and barriers, right? And if we can help minimize, you can never get, you know, it's just like culture. Desired state culture is a journey, not a destination, right? So as much as we can kind of promote and understand what level of effectiveness we have within an organization that can really underpin a solid culture. And for me, our model around culture consists of four dimensions and prioritized in this order. Leadership, organization, which is largely values, policies, and climate, workforce, and technology. So we look to understand how any given company's employees will provide sentiment across those specific and across those four dimensions of culture. And we help align that with financial indicators that tell us if we're on the right track, unbalanced culture and promoting more organizational effectiveness to help them be productive.

Tod  (06:34)

So how did you finalize those four categories? And we know this well, right? We just completed this assessment through your four categories. And I found it tremendously useful to narrow in and look at how we're doing in each of the areas. How did you end up with those four?

Tom (06:53)

Well, I guess I'd first start by, as an entrepreneur, and not like a career-long HR expert, right, which is super important, right, to this equation. I'm not minimizing that. But for me, when trying to get relatable data and relatable metrics to the people who really we needed behind improving culture and organizational effectiveness, I took a look at a lot of the employee engagement data that came back, and it was just overly operationalized, overly comprehensive in regards to how senior leaders can understand it and get connected to it. It's super important for how HR helps the workforce down through the ranks and across. But at the same time, I just as an entrepreneur gave me a rash when I thought about how it didn't translate to getting the CEO, a board of directors, right? A

in understanding something that was less comprehensive. So I tried to keep it to four areas, right? When we were creating this, there was a lot of tension on what should be part of it. And I also wanted to build something that was kind of hierarchical in the sense that there was priority, right? Like meeting dramatic examples, like leadership is the number one priority, technology's four, you have an issue, throwing new laptops at it is maybe a band-aid at best, right?

But trust or empathy or clear communication from leadership should take precedent over most everything because that's how you get people to kind of follow any given company's north star, right? So we just really went about trying to understand, how to keep it simple and how to do it in a way where it gave people priorities that they can take targeted actions on, right? And if I can...

You know, and my objective was to set out how can I connect those leaders with the variety of needs across their workforce so that there's some transparency and accountability and alignment with everyone else to kind of be in lockstep in how they address any areas of what we term as unbalanced culture.

Tod (09:11)

Yeah, look, my takeaway, it was the leadership section was about, do we know where we're going? And is it articulated? And can I tell how what I do fits into that, right? As well some other things, but it was sort of, do we know where we're going? Right? And do I know my place in that? The organizational piece was really great because it was about, is the organization helping us or hurting us on that goal? Right? Are we nimble? Is it working for us? Is it not working for us? And not often you get a chance to step back and just ask that question.

We take organizations as these fixed things. And the reality is companies change organization and modify it that it really needs to be there to enable the business, not the other way around. I love the technology one, right? Because technology was not only how's the support do I have the tools, but are we current? Do I think we're current? And at all levels of the organization, that's super, super great feedback from people.

And then it all ends up in that net promoter score, right? You can tell cutting through that. You picked out the questions to know, are these people that are going to be there for the long haul or would they recommend to a friend? Are they promoting the organization? Is having that effect or something like that? And if they like.

Tom (10:28)

Yeah, yeah. Yeah, no, but you're spot on because that net promoter score, which we've added to kind of triangulate around our culture data to help as an input, right? So that I want to make it easier for guys like you, for men and women in the CEO position when we work with them, how can I give them simple data? And I love the net promoter score. Maybe not to lead and over rely on, but I love it as an input and a way to kind of bounce out if you will.

the culture data that we have coming back. Because the goal here is two things. Get someone like you data Tod, that either tells you where you're needed to have a direct impact, or maybe more importantly, understand where you're needed to remove those speed bumps and barriers for other stakeholders to have an impact on culture, right? Like that's the whole premise for these four dimensions and giving data that you can relate to.

and understand and kind of give you a little bit more than breadcrumbs to tell you where your attention is needed or how it's needed.

Tod (11:34)

Well, talk about how you use different slicers, right? Forks is not just the top of the organization. Everybody in the organization is at a management level, gets their view and can make multiple slices. Talk about that and how that's used at the manager level.

Tom (11:51)

Yeah, it's similar to how companies will use traditional employee engagement platforms, right? Like we'll use a company's census data to get the characteristics and attributes or the data specific to where people are in the organization. So again, like with you folks, we uploaded your census data to a survey platform that we partner with, but we

imported into our dashboard. And once it's in our dashboard, that's the data that we gave you access to, our clients access to, and that's anonymous to you, right? You can't drill down anywhere. So it's reviewed in aggregate. And what that enables us to do is to say, hey, here's the culture profile of your brokers versus your W2 employees. Here's it market by market, which is

so that you can understand what kind of data you need to get to whom to gain alignment, right? So what we did with you and are doing with you is meeting with your market leaders, right? And reviewing their market specific reports to help them. And I see it, I feel it, right? Like they understand it most of the way. I might need to kind of tweak how they're looking at one piece of data or another, but it's relatable. Even to, you know, those folks.

coming from a real estate background, looking at culture data, they get what they need to do. In most cases with your folks, it's made sense to them, right, they seem like solid, great leaders and they get it. And they go, yeah, this kind of makes sense. And I, you know, but it helps, you know, and I love your perspective on this is like, the data helps crystallize what some things that you qualitatively knew or could feel. Yeah, we need to kind of work on this. But when it tells you like,

where it exists or how it exists, it kind of snaps the line, right? And gives you more than just a barometer, it gives you kind of specific direction on where to go address some stuff.

Craig (14:00)

Hey, Tom, can I ask one question? Um, how can you, as you, as you look at different organizations, how do you, how do you set the baseline to know what good culture is compared to one organization compared to another?

Tom (14:03)


Yeah, so what our data does is look for balanced first in balance, in essence, organizational effectiveness, right, the taking the sentiment and understanding the perspective of the workforce across the workforce, and looking at that. So it'll be different things at different companies. But there's definitely we definitely have clients that have similar issues, i.e., you know, technology always has, you know,

a layer of frustration that comes with it. Given, you know, you look at the challenges for any given business and Crest is no different, you know, how many, you got four or five generations in the workforce, right? A baby boomer, you know, like your data, not to give it away, but it was pretty, it was pretty, you know, much expected. Baby boomers were saying, we need more support. We want better support. And the, you know, Gen Zers were saying, we'd like something a little more current, right? Like,

and everything in between. So we were finding nothing crazy, but feedback that helps give people like Tod or your chief technology officer and CHRO and Rindy who's amazing, like the opportunity to say, this is where we need to get alignment in and around tech, right? So yes, I think it's really important that we're tracking the data, right? Across clients, but-

Craig, I really look at it as helping a particular client understand where they have to recalibrate, right? Because every client's in a different business. I could pick like, you know, one of the publicly traded corporate real estate companies. They need to calibrate their culture different than Cresa, right? Cresa has a different approach to, they need to compete differently out there, right? Based on...

the DNA of Crescent, what's important to Cresa's mission, versus what's important. So even though it's two real estate companies, you need to calibrate it. So we wanna leave open, like for the data to be super specific to any given company in any given industry with their clients that they want.

Tod (16:30)

And what we got back from it was some benchmarking, right? And our net promoter score, our scores in certain areas versus what you see in the average. Right. So that's useful. But, but to go back to the internal, how you use this internally, you know, we have a very complex, every, every company does today, you have multi-generation, multi-geography, um, different roles within an organization. And we're trying to orchestrate resources to, you know,

the best for the overall organization. And that's really hard to see on a day-to-day basis. It's, you get inklings and notions of it, but you don't really see through your organization in areas like this. What I found really useful was you can take a topic, even down to a question, and then say, how do Baby Boomers look at that versus Gen Z versus Gen X, right? How do frontline producers look at that versus people in different roles in the company?

How do different parts of the country look at it? And when you're running an organization, your messages and your decisions and your strategy really have to work for the aggregate of your workforce, or you need to build a workforce that fits your overall strategy. And it's very hard to see that unless you start to get some data on it, right? And we had some interesting surprises, right? We had some things that resonated across generations that I wouldn't have guessed, and we had some things that were just different.

by generation and that's great, right? Technology wise, right? What one people want and what other people want are different, but the overall strategy has got to work across it. And unless you have that kind of insight, you're kind of shooting in the dark.

Tom (18:12)

Yeah, and Tod, we see that a lot. I mean, that went into a lot of how we looked at building the solution, right? And thinking about it, right? In that too much is an aggregate, like trying to hold a single bar across the organization. But at the same time, that's your role. You have to look at the macro, right? So just getting back to why we designed the metrics the way we did was so that.

It would be, we want to help you be effective and efficient in how you go across the variety of needs as they come across your radar, right? So, you know, just gets back to how important we think that is.

Tod (18:56)

But also in managing, you have bias and like I say, you don't really see everything. I found that some of the scores, we were very fortunate to have a nice net promoter score across the organization pretty persistently, which is fantastic. But when I looked at it by maybe manager or office, it was really interesting because it's not one size fits all in terms of management style. We have a variety of people and how they communicate. talk about the mission, how they talk about the company, how they interact. And I was so pleasantly surprised to see so many different styles work. It's not everyone has to march to the same company too, but everyone has to translate it and have it be authentic from them. I'm just on the leadership piece. It was great to see people in different parts of the country who manage very differently have very similar levels of effectiveness, right? At for them delivering the message. And when you can get an organization in tune like that, it's a beautiful thing, right?

Tom (20:03)

And I guess Tod, you're getting to how different managers or leaders have their own strengths and weaknesses, right? So what you see, absolutely, you have an excellent, a very good to excellent culture by all standards. And we would see effective and good leaders. But to your point, it was a little different, right? And I wonder how much it's them using their strengths.

to keep things at the very good to excellent mark, right? But at the same time, how do you help them? Does it give you breadcrumbs to how you can help them where they aren't as strong, right? But it might be important to summer all of the employees with any given mark.

Tod (20:48)

So, Tom, let me pivot. How has the workforce management and culture changed over the last three years since the pandemic?

Tom (21:01)

Three years. Well, I guess my first thing would be like someone shared some data with me over the last three or four decades How much tangible assets versus intangible assets have flipped in any given organization, right? Which puts so much emphasis on IP brand experience knowledge and all those things that are more soft, you know, Everyone's not making laundry machines anymore where all the assets were, you know metal and

gears and all that stuff. It's now all about people. And, you know, that's flipped from 90% tangible and 10% intangible to like the late 70s, 1980s to really the opposite where it's 90% intangible, 10% tangible across the S&P 500. So with all of that momentum over the last number of decades, we get whacked by this pandemic and everyone scatters for lack of a better description. And

I think that's put a lot of emphasis on culture and the fabric that connects people. How do you build and maintain? Recalibrate that fabric because if you have any CEO, Tod, you might be a great case for this. And I said, close your eyes and what's culture look like? In your head, you would envision people together, right? You wouldn't have these different thought bubbles of someone typing with their cat on their lap at the dining table.

versus someone else at a Starbucks in Florida versus someone else in a different place, right? Like you would picture it together, right? So that's the challenge of how we view and address culture in a different way. And that's where we get, you know, we still get some pushback on why we have technology as one of our four dimensions around culture, but given what we just said in this massive change in how companies have to address

people wanting flexibility, but the data shows people together, like really strengthens culture. So how do you find that balance? So a pushback on technology makes me scratch my head because that's supporting that fabric across space, right? Spaces and location. So this idea of technology kind of connecting people and enabling to be productive, right? Like if you think about,

If you think about it, culture really is the level of tech related frustrations that really impact productivity and communication. If your culture tolerates too much of that, it's an issue. So that's how I connect. And I think technology is such an important input to culture. And tech also has to manage that proactive support versus reactive support.

in this new distributed way of working, right? Proactive being training people, reactive being how many tickets did I close versus actual efficacy of fixing someone's problem so that they know or whatever it is. But there's also tech, kind of this healthy tension around user experience, compliance, right? Everyone has compliance, at least from the InfoSec perspective, right?

What do we do? How do we do it from a tech perspective to safeguard from any bad stuff happening from an infosec perspective? So that balance between UX compliance and innovation to allow people to try and do new things where technology enables that, you know, that's where technology and culture really are one in the same to help enable those things. So that's how I look at the impact over not only the last decades in that flip to the emphasis on

people more than things, but also what's happened in distributing people over the last few years.

Tod (24:58)

Yeah, you have an interesting point of view about technology, right? Technology is not just a tool that, you know, kind of comes with the place. It is both a tool that you have to have do your job. And it's also a way of your strategy and action, right? Are we tech enabled? Are we tech forward looking? Are we part of the new productivity or are we working against it? And if I look back to earlier in my career,

tech was sort of a tool that you sort of had to put up with, right? And now people have much higher expectations and much more fluidity and much more capability around tech, right? So not only do you have to keep the lights on, but you have to provide and be seen to provide next generation tools to compete and engage. And I think that's really repositioned tech back into the forefront of a value creator in the company, not just sort of, you know, the utility.

So Tom, in your work, when you see the data come back, what are some symptoms of problematic or bad culture? How does it show up when you look at it, when you see it in the data?

Tom (26:11)

Right, well, it'll show up getting back to before how we can really zoom in on different areas, right? There's kind of macro issues, right, that are more leadership and organization specific, the first and second priority dimensions. So we'll see things that sometimes make a CEO or someone else squirm a little bit in when they see the data behind the results, like what's supporting it. And then there are some things.

that are a little bit more specific to the workforce where a manager, you'll see some smoke, right? Where attention should be paid around. There are some companies have a tough time bringing women as an example into an organization. So you might find an area that you see a little bit more turnover with women or less women employed in that area.

What should that tell you? What kind of things could you look at? So we're able to look at the culture profile of females. And once we look at that, and then we get down to a department or a segment of the workforce further, we're able to zero in on data that suggests that some attention should be paid to it. And that's how we look at the ability to use those levers and focus in and understand

We have real big tech issues here, or we have an issue kind of like I mentioned that might be more manager-esque or general manager-esque versus the CEO needs to know they have to communicate better, right? Or differently, or build a sense of trust. And the biggest first step, and this is kind of culture 101, I think you guys know this for sure, but when you get the data, what do you do with it, right?

That's the way you build back up people kind of saying, oh, I'm not just being asked to hold up the culture as an employee, right? This is a two-way relationship between me as an employee and together along with leadership and they're helping put the right things in place to help us succeed. So our data is really designed to help find out what needs to kind of be recalibrated to.

build back that relationship or strengthen or protect that relationship.

Tod 28:37)

Yeah, what I see when maybe there's some problems in the culture when you use data like this is lack of alignment, right? There'll be something where the top thinks it's all this way, but then everyone else thinks it's that way, right? Or there isn't consistent down through, whether it's jobs or generations or geographies, it's not at least somewhat consistent, right?

If the message isn't carrying through and the, and people's feeling about the place isn't consistent, then that that's a misalignment and at best it's, you know, maybe a missed opportunity, right? Yeah, there was hotspots, right? Whether it be a manager or geography in our office or this or that, you can see hotspots, you can see where there's misalignment and sometimes misalignment is not, is good, right? Cause it points to where something isn't right or resonating.

and you flow to that and you say, how do we address that? How do you either change strategy message in what you're doing as a company or how do you engage more in a way that it's more consistent or maybe there's a manager, maybe there's a miscommunication. And I found that the data, when it is so sortable like that is really easy to use. And what we've done is we put it in the hands of the managers, right? The managers look at it, they get everything.

up and down from them and they can slice and dice and look at and say, hey, what's working, what isn't? And none of it is specific enough that you can get to an individual, but at the manager level, you can look at and say, hey, what's working and what isn't? And that's so much easier than thinking, I have to be so aware just in my day to day that I know what's working and what isn't, which is very hard to do. Right?

Tom (30:22)

Everywhere. Yeah. You make a great point and the thing that pops to mind, I enjoyed working with you a great deal on this. And when we gave you the data, when we brought it back, your first reaction was, we have a good culture. You suspected that, right? Not that you thought you weren't gonna learn anything, but you suspected you had a healthy culture, which you did.

But your first comment was, I need to protect this. We need to protect this. This is an asset, right? So that alignment is so true, but it's not only align around issues, it's also aligning around protecting it, right? The data is also quite useful in kind of aligning folks across in that here are some things we learned and we can improve on to protect. And these are some, so you're giving them back data that...

they'll want to maintain any manager or leader, right? And protect. But I thought that was a really great approach from you. And it helped me see certain things in a new light, right? Like when, for example, when we sorted by ENPS, you had really good data, right? And you had some amazing data. But some of that amazing data might have been pulled down to very good data because there's always an underbelly. Nothing's perfect, right?

There's always an area to improve. And once you get into how do you protect this, then you're looking for that. You're looking for those areas that can be addressed.

Tod (32:00)

Well, that's a great topic, especially for us, because we're in growth mode, right? I mean, we're going to be twice our size before too long, right, in the next few years, and then keep going. And it's interesting to see, having done this a few times before, how that really works, right? And I can tell you what I've learned is how it really works is organizations are ecosystems of different people in different geographies from different generations doing different roles. And if you get it somewhat right,

then you become an attraction, right? Because then all those folks, that's why the net promoter is so important, right? You choose the right people and they choose the right people. And then it's a self-policing kind of a thing, is it whether it's a team you recruit or a company you wanna merge in, you're choosing for fit with a strategy and culture fit. And the organization does that if you get it right. And it creates a bit of a flywheel, right?

Very hard to invent that from zero, right? Those things come about over time, but if you can get to that kind of critical mass, then it creates its own effect to protect and reinforce culture.

Tom (33:12)

And that is such an important point or input to the question you posed earlier, which is what's changed over the last couple to a few years, right? Like, you know, the great resignation, people were leaving. There were a lot of people leaving and finding out once they got there, what they thought they were going to was didn't have much depth to it. Right. There were a lot of surveys and survey data out there from firms. You know,

pulling these people, making the move that a lot of times they were landing somewhere else and they thought it was the same issue, right? Same issues or a different version of culture that wasn't through and through. And so today it's really important to have more depth to your culture and to protect it because you're going to bring people in and you want them to say, this is what I signed up for, this is what I wanted, and then they're going to stay.

Tod (34:07)

and they may not be under one roof, right? We're in the real estate business where it's a convening, right? And we know how important that is, but we also know how broad-based organizations are and with the different work styles, they're not always gonna be under one roof. So you have to have a culture that goes beyond, it's pretty nice in this house, right? It has to go beyond. And if people find that, then they'll gravitate towards it.

Tom (34:10)



Tod (34:35)

And that'll be a point of stickiness that you really can't recreate any other way, right? Money, comp, title, whatever. That is all a bit secondary to is this a place I fit? And what I've really enjoyed in the work we did together is it gives us some real insight and some data, use really useful data about how it's going in four really key areas and in areas that you can use, right?

And that is something I think that's been a bit missing in management. You know, management's been hard. We expect managers and leaders to know everything and see everything and, and really do maybe more than they can do on their own without the benefit of the organization. And I think a tool like this, we can see into a little bit, really you appreciate the value of a broad-based organization and now aligning those pieces and policing and protecting it creates.

you know, a special place that really helps us succeed more in business.

Tom (35:38)

Yeah, and if we can help by, you know, we're using those specialized, um, but why they accepted financial indicators to help people track it over time. So if we can show people where they're unbalanced and understand where those indicators like human capital ROI or human capital value add, where those financial indicators today, and then going to address those areas of unbalanced culture and watching, watching those indicators react over time, right? Like you mentioned

You know what you're looking to do. You're building the team that can do exponentially more revenue, right? You've stuck to it. So watch, you'll be able to watch the HCROI and HCVA develop over time. That tells you we're heading in the right direction, right? What else do we need to recalibrate or protect in the organization to keep that trajectory?

Tod  (36:32)

I love it. I love how we're getting to ROI on talent and on culture. And it's great in our business because we're making investments on behalf and with companies in space that's expensive and long-term. And it really is about talent, right? I mean, ultimately saving a nickel on the space doesn't help if it costs you a dime on talent. And that was kind of the old way of doing it. Now with companies so focused on talent,

It's about investing the right thing at the right time to support your overall productivity, right? And a big part of that is being able to attract, engage, and retain super talents. I love how that's affected our industry.

Tom (37:19)

Yeah, and using your terminology, right? I remember you said this to me is resisting the root cause of attrition, right? Like this, where we're detecting unbalanced culture, you know, is pointing you to where the, you know, what's causing turnover and attrition. So if you can use the metrics to resist it, not only do you keep people there and keep them productive, but you'll

contribute to the bottom line just by avoiding costs and keeping people moving forward in a productive way.

Tod (37:54)

Yeah, and as you get it right, you know, then you have a competitive advantage, right? Hey, look, Tom, this is always great to talk to you. Always great to see the work you've done. I think you've made some wonderful strides to how you actually gain insight and gain data and gain, gain manageable tools around something so important. And sometimes amorphous is culture. So great to have you on the podcast. Thanks everybody for joining.

Tom (37:59)


Yeah, appreciate it.

Thank you much. Thank you much, Craig, Tod.

Tod (38:23)

Thanks, Craig. And we'll see everyone on the next episode of Opportunity Space. Thank you.